Donald Trump's astonishing interview with “The Atlantic”

[This article was first published on our site on May 4, 2025, and republished on May 23]

On Thursday, April 24, I joined two of my colleagues, Ashley Parker and Michael Scherer, at the White House to interview President Donald Trump.

The White House invitation was followed by a post from the president on Truth Social [the social network created by Trump] which read in part: “Believe it or not, but today I am meeting with Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor in chief of The Atlantic , the one who has written so much fiction about me.” Apparently, what was not entirely fictional in the eyes of the president was the Signalgate scandal, with which he said he had “rather more ‘success’.”

[On the appointed day], we found a friendly and cheerful president in an Oval Office redecorated in a style I would describe as “Louis XIV-style casino kitsch.” If not forgiven, our countless transgressions were certainly swept under the rug.

Here you'll find large excerpts from our conversation, condensed and edited for clarity. Our primary goal was to get the president to analyze his historic political comeback and explain his new way of wielding power—including whether he sees any limits to what a president can do. As for Trump, his primary goal seemed to be to convince us that he had used his presidency to serve the nation and all humanity. (His secondary goal was to ask us whether we thought he should have a chandelier installed in the Oval Office—a topic on which The Atlantic is careful not to take a position.) He had some very interesting things to say about Ukraine, tariffs, and the role of vendetta in his second term. I found our meeting both fascinating and illuminating.

Donald Trump: This is going to be very, very interesting. Do you think Biden would have done it? I don't think so. How are you all doing?

Ashley Parker: Well, and you? Thanks for having us.

Trump : I'm fine. Thank you very much.

Jeffrey Goldberg: We're delighted to be here. And thank you for announcing the interview on Truth Social…

Ashley Parker : Thank you for your discretion!

Donald Trump: I wanted to put a little pressure on you. But hey, at the same time, you're going to increase sales fivefold.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Believe me, I understand the marketing trick.

Donald Trump: I did it for you. Remember what it was like here, Jeffrey? This is our new Oval Office—people love it. All these paintings were in the vaults. We have vaults downstairs. There are something like 4,000 paintings, and I chose some of our greatest presidents.

Jeffrey Goldberg: It really changes a lot.

Donald Trump: Now the office looks like it's supposed to. Before, they didn't take care of it. They didn't put any special care into it.

Ashley Parker: Do you use your own money to decorate the Oval Office?

Donald Trump: Yes, it's out of my pocket. See up there? All of this comes from Mar-a-Lago [Donald Trump's Florida residence].

Ashley Parker: Is that true?

Donald Trump: Yes.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Wait, the gilding…?

Donald Trump: Yes, the gilding. All of that is 24-karat gold, because they never invented a paint that looks the same as gold. They never did.

Michael Scherer: Is the rumor that you are going to redo the ceiling true?

Donald Trump: Yes, I'm going to have it redone. The whole question is whether I should put a chandelier up. A beautiful crystal chandelier, something very opulent. It would look good here. It's almost missing, but well, I'm not sure... We're mainly focusing on China and Russia.

But, you know, all this is new. The George Washington was in the basement. Most of these paintings were in the vaults. And it's wonderful. We just had NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte . And, just before you, we were with the Norwegian Prime Minister. We have an excellent relationship. People don't talk about it so much, but they all want to meet us. We're trying to put an end to the carnage, you know, in Russia...

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes, we'd like to discuss that very topic. But first, I'd like to thank you for having us. I believe that dialogue is always preferable to silence. We're trying to write a front-page story that's both fair and balanced.

Donald Trump: I couldn't ask for anything better. Fair and balanced.

Jeffrey Goldberg: The central question of our article is how you did it. If we rewind to January and February 2021, no one would have bet on you returning [to the White House]. And then I also wanted to ask you what you thought I didn't understand about your presidency.

Donald Trump: I truly believe that what I'm doing is good for the country, for the people, for humanity.

As I just told you, I spoke with the Norwegian Prime Minister and, separately, with the head of NATO. We also had the former head of NATO here a few minutes ago, Stoltenberg. A great guy; both of them are great guys. And they had one thing to say to me. They said, “If you don’t end this war, it will never end; it will drag on, and there will be deaths for years to come.” And, as you know, there are—I said 2,500 deaths a week, but it’s closer to 5,000 deaths a week, mostly Russian and Ukrainian soldiers. And if we could stop that, that would be great.

Jeffrey Goldberg: But let me ask you, since I see Ronald Reagan 's picture hanging just over your shoulder... For the past 100 years, American presidents have seemed to have a natural compassion for small countries that are persecuted or oppressed by Russia. But you don't seem to have that same innate compassion. It wasn't just Ronald Reagan, by the way. There was Jimmy Carter , Kennedy, and so on. Why don't you seem to have the same feeling that all the other American presidents have had for these persecuted and oppressed countries?

Donald Trump: I think I have that compassion. I think I'm saving this country. I think this country is going to get crushed very soon. It's a huge war machine. Let's face it. Without me... I was the one who gave them the Javelin [anti-tank missile launchers], which allowed them to destroy the tanks. You know, that was a pivotal moment, when the tanks got bogged down. I gave them a lot of Javelins. That's what allowed them to destroy all those tanks that had gotten bogged down. You know, that was a significant moment because if all those tanks had gone through, they were only 71 miles from Kyiv and they were going to take the city. That was the end of the war; in 24 hours, it was over.

And that's one of the reasons why they were able to continue [fighting]. At the same time, I might also regret that they continued, because a lot of people died. There were a lot more deaths in this war than people say. And not just military personnel. A lot of civilians, too. And, you know, there are lots of things that prove that I've been very good, because I'm saving this country. The Norwegian Prime Minister—a very respected guy—said that if President Trump didn't get involved, this war would never end. I think I'm doing Ukraine a very big favor. I really mean it.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Ukrainians don't think so.

Donald Trump: It's mostly that we talk a lot about those who don't share that opinion. It's quite simple: the war in Ukraine would never have happened if I had been president. It would never have happened, and it didn't happen during the four years [I was president].

Jeffrey Goldberg: I'd like to ask you a question about something you just wrote in a post on Truth Social. By the way, I really like the part: "Believe it or not, but I'm about to have Jeffrey Goldberg on."

Donald Trump: Oh, did you like it? I had to do it.

Jeffrey Goldberg: That's a good point.

Donald Trump: I had to explain. It was my way of telling people that I have respect for you. I did that because I have a certain respect [for you].

Jeffrey Goldberg: You wrote, after discussing “all [my] fiction,” that I had been “rather more successful” in the Signalgate affair [see box]. I didn’t quite understand what you meant…

Donald Trump: I just wanted to say that it has...

Jeffrey Goldberg: Are you telling me there really was a Signalgate?

Donald Trump: Yes, there was one. And I was going to say something else, but I didn't have time...

Jeffrey Goldberg: How long does it take you to write these messages?

Donald Trump: Not long.

Jeffrey Goldberg: I ​​would have thought otherwise.

Donald Trump: I'm going very, very fast. You'd be surprised. You'd be impressed. And I like to write them myself. I sometimes dictate them, but I like to write them myself. My point is, it resonated a lot. You were effective, and it made a lot of noise.

Jeffrey Goldberg: But you're not saying it was effective in the sense that it identified a national security issue that needed to be addressed.

Donald Trump: No, what I mean is it worked in the sense that the general public was informed about it.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Oh.

Donald Trump: You made it known. It made a lot of noise.

Jeffrey Goldberg: But have you taken any policy lessons from this and talked to [Defense Secretary] Pete Hegseth and [National Security Advisor] Mike Waltz about it?

Donald Trump: I think we've realized that maybe it's not a very good idea to use Signal. If you must know, I'm going to tell these people clearly not to use Signal, even though many people use it. Personally, whatever that app is, whoever owns it, I don't want to use it.

Ashley Parker: So you don't use Signal yourself?

Donald Trump: I don't use it, no.

Ashley Parker: You've had a lot of good things to say about Pete Hegseth, who fired three of his top advisers in recent weeks, fired his chief of staff, had a makeup studio set up in the Pentagon, and revealed two attack plans in two conversations on Signal, including one with his wife and his personal lawyer. Have you spoken with him to correct any of this?

Donald Trump: Yes, I did. Pete has been through some tough times. I think he'll bounce back. I think he's smart. He's talented. He has a lot of energy. He's been through a lot with this whole thing. But I had a constructive discussion with him; we needed to have that discussion.

Ashley Parker: How does he explain what happened?

Donald Trump: Look, we have a Secretary of Defense [Lloyd Austin, in office under Joe Biden from 2021 to 2025] who was missing for a week [due to health reasons], with no one having the slightest idea where he was. Do you realize? And then, whether we like it or not, Afghanistan may have been the most embarrassing chapter in the history of our country. I think it was a huge mistake. I wanted out of it. But I still would have kept Bagram Air Base. I would have kept Bagram because it's right next to where China makes its nuclear weapons. But here we have a Secretary of Defense who did that [ordered the evacuation of the base and its transfer to the Afghan army in 2021], that turned into a fiasco [the Taliban eventually recaptured the base] and, you know, I think he's done a lot worse than that.

Ashley Parker: But for now, do you think you'll keep Hegseth in his position?

Donald Trump: Yes, he is a reliable person.

Ashley Parker: Will he stay longer than Mike Waltz?

Donald Trump: Waltz is doing a great job. He's here. He just left this office. He's doing well. He's been through some tough times, too. [He was ultimately fired on May ^1. ]

Michael Scherer: A few weeks ago, several members of the National Security Council were dismissed. People like [Republican activist close to Trump] Laura Loomer and others have expressed concerns to you about certain members of the government. Should Americans expect further changes in the composition of the government?

Donald Trump: I hope not, but, you know, sometimes it takes a little while to get to know people. You get people recommended. You'll get someone to write [your speeches] and you'll find out six months later that they've done some things that don't sit well with you, so you let them go or you dot the i's and cross the t's. And I hire, directly or indirectly, 10,000 people. That's a lot.

You know, this office is where it all starts. It's a pretty incredible place. It's funny, I have the most important people in the world come to see me in this office. They have magnificent offices themselves, they have a lot of power, big companies or big countries, and they all want to see what the Oval Office looks like.

This is an extraordinary place. And I hire from among the 10,000 people in this office. Directly or indirectly, the Secretary of State and others, Supreme Court justices—three of them—down to people much lower in the hierarchy. And, in all these hires, you're going to realize you made a mistake.

Ashley Parker: Our article looks back on an impressive comeback, but there's more to it. It feels like you wield power differently today. But my question is about January 2021: you're in exile, fighting for your political survival.

Donald Trump: I don't see it that way, but I suppose you're right. There might be some truth to that.

Ashley Parker: When did you realize that you could come back, that you could become president again?

Donald Trump: I'm a very positive person. I debated whether I wanted to come back or not, but I never said to myself that I couldn't do it.

We had Ron DeSantis , who was a very promising candidate. People were saying, “Oh, he’ll be great.” And, in the Democratic camp, I guess some were very promising too. Well, maybe. Personally, I didn’t think so. Biden, in my opinion, has been a bad president. He’s let millions and millions of people into the country who didn’t belong there. That’s a colossal problem.

I wondered if I wanted to go, but I knew if I went, I would win. But I never saw it as a comeback. A lot of people talk about a comeback. I imagine most people see it as the greatest political comeback in history. I think it's an honor, but personally, I don't see it as a comeback. I'm just continuing to plow my way through politics.

Michael Scherer: When I was in the Oval Office [in late April] with the press pool [a select group of journalists who cover presidential news], I asked you about the IRS's intervention at Harvard [the IRS, the US tax authority, plans to revoke the tax-exempt status of this elite university in Massachusetts], and you spoke, quite passionately, about the conservatives who were being targeted by the IRS. You also issued an executive order against [the head of the US Cybersecurity Agency] Chris Krebs, whom you accuse of violating the First Amendment, but whom you are actually punishing for his position in the 2020 election [Chris Krebs has refused to acknowledge the existence of massive fraud in favor of Joe Biden, an allegation made by Donald Trump.]

Donald Trump: Good.

Michael Scherer: Many people in the country fear that you will drift into authoritarianism as you use your executive power to attack people with whom you disagree. You posted on Truth Social, but that may have been a joke: “He who saves his country breaks no law.” [ A quote from Napoleon Bonaparte .] Should Americans be concerned about a change in the nature of the presidency under your watch?

Donald Trump: No. Look, in history, no one has been more pilloried than I have. You may have a hard time realizing this because you're on the other side of the aisle, but no one has been more targeted than I have. It took me a while to realize that. I was told, when I fired [former FBI Director] James Comey , that firing him was a huge mistake, that that mistake would come back to haunt me. That firing him was like throwing a rock into a hornet's nest. [Trump criticized Comey for his handling of the investigation into alleged Russian interference in the 2016 US presidential election.] The FBI was in a tizzy. And that's when the famous "insurance policy" message came to light. Do you remember that message? “Don’t worry, he’ll screw up. But if he doesn’t, we have an insurance policy.” The insurance policy is what they were doing. [According to texts exchanged by two FBI employees hostile to Trump during the 2016 presidential campaign, the investigation into alleged Trump-Russia ties was considered an “insurance policy” in the event of a Trump victory.]

No one has ever been pilloried as much as I was. We accomplished a lot during the first term. You know, I was given very good grades, certainly in the center and on the right. On the right, that's for sure. But I was very well rated. And, you know, if you look at the economy, when Covid hit and the stock market came back behind it, it was higher than before the pandemic, which is quite an achievement, frankly.

But the truth is, I was being spied on. The first campaign was spied on. And now it's been proven—you know, a lot of this stuff has been proven, this whole witch hunt [fomented by Attorney Robert] Mueller . And the bottom line is that I had no connection to Russia.

Just to finish: this is a term that is on a completely different scale than the first one, even though I accomplished a tremendous amount during the first one. But the first time, I was fighting for my survival and to lead this country. This time, I'm fighting to help my country and help the world. You know, it's a very different presidency.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Let's assume, for the sake of this exchange, that you're right about all these things that allegedly happened to you. You're back in business. Wouldn't your time be better spent on China and other important issues rather than on personal vendettas against people you accuse of persecuting you four or eight years ago?

Donald Trump: You have two kinds of people. Those who say, “You just won one of the greatest elections in the history of our country. Do a great job, honor your mandate, and make America great again.” Okay? And then you have those who will say, “Go ahead. Do a great job. But, on the other hand, you can't let these people get away with this.” Believe it or not, I'm one of the former.

Jeffrey Goldberg: I'm not sure I believe you.

Donald Trump: Yes, that's true. But a lot of people in the government aren't. They feel like I've been really, really mistreated. There are people in this government who love or adore Donald Trump and the MAGA [Make America Great Again] agenda and everything that goes with it. I think the MAGA movement is the most important political movement in the history of our country.

Jeffrey Goldberg: More important than the founding of the Republican Party in the 1850s?

Donald Trump: No, no, no, but it's an important movement. There haven't been many like it. It's an incredible movement, and I think there are a lot of people who are very loyal to me. There are people who don't like the way I've been treated.

Jeffrey Goldberg: What I can't understand is that you're one of the most successful people in history—you won the presidency twice…

Donald Trump: Three times.

Jeffrey Goldberg: That's precisely the question I wanted to ask you! At this point in your career, don't you think you could admit that you lost? Personally, I don't think you won the 2020 election .

Donald Trump: I'm not asking you.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Most people don't think you won the 2020 election. Which brings us back to the question: should we seek revenge or move on?

Donald Trump: Look, it would be easy for me to dodge this and I could let you move on. But I'm a fundamentally honest person. I know the election was rigged. Biden didn't get 80 million votes. And he didn't do better than Barack Hussein Obama on the Black vote in the swing states —just in the swing states, that's interesting. And there's a lot more. We have so much information, between the 51 agents—it was so dishonest of them—and the "computer from hell"—the laptop of Joe Biden's son, Hunter, which allegedly contains evidence of the Biden family's shady dealings—lots of different things.

So, it would be easier to move on to another subject. But I am a fundamentally honest person, and I believe that from the bottom of my heart, based on facts – which is more important than my personal beliefs. The country is coming off four difficult years. The country has been very tested. We had a president who clearly didn't have what it takes. I just saw some very brilliant people from other countries today; I see them regularly. And I think one of the things I'm perhaps most proud of is international relations.

Jeffrey Goldberg: I'm not sure Canadians would agree.

Donald Trump: Let's talk about Canadians. Here's the problem I have with Canada: We subsidize them to the tune of $200 billion [€175 billion] a year. And we don't need their gasoline; we don't need their oil; we don't need their timber. We don't need any of their energy. In fact, we don't need anything they have. What I'm saying is, they would make a very good ^51st state. There are other countries I really like. I really like Canada. I have very good friends there.

You know, 95% of their trade is with us. Remember, if they become a U.S. state, they will no longer have tariffs. They will have lower taxes. They will be militarily protected.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Do you seriously want Canada to become an American state?

Donald Trump: I think that would be a very good thing.

Jeffrey Goldberg: A gigantic state... Democratic, then.

Donald Trump: That's what a lot of people say, but even if that's the case, I'm fine with that.

Ashley Parker: The Trump Organization is selling "Trump 2028" hats. Have you sought legal advice about running for office a third time?

Donald Trump: No.

Ashley Parker: I come back to you and this mandate. You have shattered so many rules, rules of democracy...

Donald Trump: That would be a real transgression, wouldn't it?

Jeffrey Goldberg: That would be the most earth-shattering of all.

Donald Trump: Well, maybe I'm just trying to shake things up...

People keep yelling at me, wherever I go, “2028!” They're happy. People are thrilled with this presidency. I've had very good polling, except for Fox News. Fox doesn't give me good polling in general, but even with them, I have good polling. Fox is a disgrace in many ways about this. But, you know, I wrote something today, I said, “Rupert Murdoch has been telling me for years that he's going to get rid of his pollsters,” but he never did—they've never treated me decently, the people at Fox. But I have very good polling, even with them.

Ashley Parker: “Trump 2028” isn’t that one of the things you want to break?

Donald Trump: Well, I'll just tell you this. I don't really want to talk about it, but no, it's not something I'm considering. And I think it would be very difficult. But that's what I'm being begged to do: "No, no, you have to run."

Michael Scherer: You've mentioned the possibility of transferring American criminals to prisons abroad. You've criticized the courts for requiring due process regarding the deportation of undocumented immigrants here in the United States. Are there any red lines you can't cross?

Donald Trump: Yes.

Michael Scherer: Do American citizens have reason to fear that your government will not respect their due process rights? The Declaration of Independence states that we do not want to be subject to foreign jurisdiction.

Donald Trump: Can you open this? Open this for me [he asks Karoline Leavitt, the White House press secretary, to draw the blue curtains that hide a copy of the Declaration of Independence, installed in the newly installed office].

Donald Trump: What do you think of Karoline? How's she doing? Good? Is she doing a good job?

Michael Scherer: So my question was: Where are the lines? Do American citizens have to fear being sent to foreign prisons?

Donald Trump: I actually said that.

Michael Scherer: Yes, and the problem the courts have pointed out is that people accused of being here illegally will be deported without due process. Which raises the question: Without due process, even someone wrongfully arrested would be at risk of being deported...

Donald Trump: Well, these people are illegal immigrants, for starters...

Michael Scherer: Yes, but what if there's a mistake? It could happen that we arrest the wrong person, right?

Donald Trump: Let me tell you this. Nothing will ever be perfect in this world. But, if you look carefully: Clinton, Bush and all the presidents before me - none has ever been shown in the finger when they had illegals in the country; They expelled them without any harm and very effectively. We were fell on it about this member of the MS-13 gang who comes from-where he comes from, already?

Steven Cheung, Director of Communication for the White House: from Salvador.

Donald Trump: Well, he came from Salvador at the start. I know he was not from this country, he came from afar, and it appears that he had a locker. We made it the most chic type in the world, a wonderful father. Then they came across [a tattoo] MS-13 on his [hand] joints, and they saw lots of other things.

Ashley Parker: But what about Americans who are not in an irregular situation and who have committed a crime? Will their rights to a regular procedure be guaranteed?

Donald Trump: If a person is in regular situation in the country? There is a big difference between being in a regular and irregular situation. These people are in an irregular situation, all as much as they are. It is therefore 250,000 people that we would like to expel. They are brutes, savages. Many have been arrested, some for having hit the head of women on the head with baseball bats; Some for dragging a woman on a motorcycle and sent her against a lamp, leaving her seriously injured. If you read the minutes, some have pushed people into the metro just before the train arrives, they were growing in front of the train and were very seriously injured or died, most of them died.

And I say “if” on the issue of foreign prisons. "If it's legal", I say "if it's legal" . I would really like it to be done. You have people who are condemned 28 times in a row, people who are put in prison every time, who come out immediately and who recover to hit or injure people, or who do something very bad, and who return to it, and who find themselves like that with 28 different convictions.

If it was legal - and no one gave me a final answer on this subject - but if it was, it would not be any problem to expel them in a prison abroad, which would cost us much less.

Michael Scherer: Speaking of final response, would you say that the judiciary is still on an equal footing with the government, and will you comply with the final decision of the Supreme Court?

Donald Trump: Oh, yes. This is what I have always done. I complied with it. I have not always agreed with his decisions, but I have always complied with it. This is what to do. That said, we have judges who are very, very tough. I think we could have a reinforced concrete file, in other words an impertable affair, and that we could be laminated. Some of these judges are very biased.

But, Jeff, I say "if it's legal" . I always say that in the preamble, because I think it allows you to frame things well.

Michael Scherer: At Wall Street, we are talking about a “Put” [“Trump Guarantee”], that is to say a floor threshold below which you will prevent the market from going down. That is to say that, if the country takes the path of a recession, you will adapt your commercial policy. If we head towards a dedollarization and the bond interest rates start to climb, you will adjust the commercial policy to compensate. Do I summarize things if I say that you follow the evolution of the market and that you will do everything to protect the American economy?

Donald Trump: I don't think it will happen. I do not see how I could come back on it, because I saw what was going on. It's been thirty-five or forty years that I say the same thing: I saw this country being stripped by others, and I say "friends as enemies". And, believe me, our friends are in many cases worse than our enemies. Last year, billions of dollars were lost in trade because of this type [Biden]. And, each year, we lose billions. Hundreds of billions, and now, they are even thousands of billion [trade deficit]. And I find it hard to imagine that a country that loses as much money can remain viable for a long time.

And I told myself that someone had to do something. And, as you know, I have already set up customs duties on cars, 25 %; on steel, 25 %; on aluminum, 25 %. I have basic customs duties of 10 % for everyone, for each country, and it will change. And, so that things are very clear: I have a lot of negotiations on fire at the moment, but I have not been held. I do it because I want to see their reaction. But I am like someone who has a store that everyone wants to buy the products. This store, I have to protect it. And it is I who fix the prices.

And we will become very rich. We're going to make a lot of money. So, no, I don't think it will affect me. It always affects you a little bit, but no, I don't believe - and we certainly don't say that it will fall below a certain threshold -, moreover, I don't know where we are today. What does that say, the scholarship?

Jeffrey Goldberg: I ​​don't have my nose on it permanently.

Donald Trump: Anyone know? Let's see. Just give me the good news-if they are good.

Karoline Leavitt: It climbs. All the lights are green.

Donald Trump: How much is it?

Karoline Leavitt: The Dow Jones took 419 points. The Nasdaq goes up ...

Donald Trump: It's a transition period. And not a little one. I put the records on time. I put the counters to zero. Finally, not to zero. It was between 1850 or rather 1870 and 1913 that our country experienced its peak. And all thanks to customs duties. And then, one day, a little genius said: "We will tax people rather than tax foreign countries."

Ashley Parker: Another axis of our article: You say you are a follower of positive thought. If we put aside the 2020 election, what have you learned about your ability to bring reality or shape the world around you? Can you explain to us how it works?

Donald Trump : Well, I think most Republicans think I won in 2020. I don't think that is really what I said. I think they have eyes and a brain. They are very intelligent people, in fact.

Ashley Parker: Not to mention the election, how do you manage to do this? Sometimes you have the impression that you are able to shape reality, to make things happen just by saying them.

Donald Trump: Well, I would like to tell you that it is reality. You know, I don't shape it. But maybe you could tackle another subject, because I probably shape certain things, but that, I did not imagine it; I think it's reality. I have a lot of great people who love what I say.

We want to end crime. We don't want people to be attacked, kill, slap, get tobacco. We do not want to be commercial pigeons, nor on others elsewhere. We want to keep a contained taxation. We want to be able to have a good life. And we didn't have a good life over the past four years. People were really, really unhappy. It was seen in the election. It's hard to win the Seven Swing States. And I won them hands down. All seven.

I just think I say what I think.

Donald Trump: I also say things that are common sense, but it is not because they are common sense that I say them. I say them because I believe it. It turns out that it is common sense. When I hear ... I saw this morning a member of the congress, I don't even know who it is, making feet and hands so that men [transgender] have the right to play in the women's teams. While I believe that it is 95 % [people who are against]-you know, we say that it is 80-20; I rather believe that it is 95 %. But I don't fight so much against that. I'm not even talking about it anymore. I keep this kind of subject for an election, because I do not want to try to dissuade them. When I see this member of the Congress, [Jasmine] Crockett [Democrat of Texas elected to the House of Representatives since 2023], so pitiful, and that they say that she is the party's face, I tell myself that, if they only have that to offer, they have no chance.

I think democrats have lost confidence, literally. I don't feel like they know what they are doing. I think they don't have a chief. You know, if you ask me the question today - and I know a radius on the Democratic Party, we agree? - Well, I am unable to tell you who is their leader. I don't see anyone looming on the horizon. Who do you think it?

Ashley Parker: Yes, who?

Donald Trump: I don't see anyone on the horizon. Now there may be someone ...

Michael Scherer: When we talked the first time, on the phone, you told us that you have a lot of fun [to chair the country]. It was a month and a half ago. In the meantime, are there things that have been more difficult than expected?

Donald Trump: It's much less hard than the last time. If you look at the nomination, you haven't seen anyone among the people I had the first time - and you will not see them on the third.

Michael Scherer: Do they call you to complain about their portfolio, their assets, the falling stock market?

Donald Trump: No, no one. No one called. Most people tell me I do what it takes. They do what it takes. It couldn't last, which was happening in this country. We let others mow our wool on our backs.

I think I do a great service to this country. It would be easier for me to turn my thumbs. I could have a gentle sloping presidency. I would just put my things, I would not touch anything, I would not take care of customs duties. I can't find it hard. I can't find it hard to sell [customs duties]. All we have to say is: "We lost thousands of billions of dollars on trade last year." While other countries have garnered billions. You know, the Chinese made $ 1,500 billion [1,300 billion euros] thanks to the trade. They have set up the largest army that you have ever seen with this money. And, this money is our money.

Jeffrey Goldberg: To return to Russia, you have just written today on Truth Social: "Vladimir, stop!"

Donald Trump: Yes, it's true.

Jeffrey Goldberg: He doesn't make me the effect of someone who will say: "Ah, okay, Trump tells me to stop, so I'm going to stop."

Donald Trump: You might have surprises.

Jeffrey Goldberg: If this is the case, I will come back to say to you: "You were right, I was wrong." But I don't think I would go wrong. It is not the kind of person who will give up his ambition to seize all of Ukraine. My question is: if his army is progressing, if he won other military successes ...

Donald Trump: What is possible.

Jeffrey Goldberg: … by bombing buildings…

Donald Trump: Of course.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Is there a scenario in which you would intervene, not by sending men, but by delivering more weapons, by providing total support to Ukraine, to help him keep his territorial integrity?

Donald Trump: There are many types of weapons. These are not necessarily real weapons with ammunition. It can be sanctions. It can be the banking weapon, for example. It can be a lot of different weapons.

Jeffrey Goldberg: What could Putin do who would lead you to say "What do you know? I'm on the side of Zelensky, now" ?

Donald Trump: not necessarily on the side of Zelensky, but on the side of Ukraine, yes. I had trouble with Zelensky. You remember, when he was sitting very exactly in this chair , and that he could not understand ...

Jeffrey Goldberg: It's one of the strangest scenes I saw in the oval office.

Donald Trump: Whatever he had to do was shut up, you know? He exposed his point of view. But instead of saying "okay" when I said we were going to try to solve the problem, that we were going to try to help [Ukraine], He reacted saying: “No, no, we also need security.” I replied: “Safety?”

Jeffrey Goldberg: Isn't he supposed to plead the cause of his country?

Donald Trump: Yes, of course, but let's put an end to this war first. What I said was: "I don't even know if we will be able to end it." You know, he talked about safety afterwards. After. And then he said something like that they were fighting alone, that they had received no help. I replied: "We still gave you $ 350 billion [310 billion euros], much more than Europe elsewhere" , which is another thing that bothers me.

We will see what is happening in the next sequence. There, we play our latest cards. And, once again, it's Biden's war. I don't want to be put on my back. It is a horrible war. Who should never have taken place. [With me,] It would never have taken place, as sure as you sit in this chair.

Jeffrey Goldberg: This scene with President Zelensky right here, do you think she could have been afraid of Taiwan, South Korea or Japan?

Donald Trump: No. No.

Jeffrey Goldberg: They don't wonder: "Is that how he treats his allies?"

Donald Trump: Listen. We were treated very hard by others. We went to South Korea and we took care of them because of the war. We took care of them, and besides we never stopped. You know, we have 42,000 men in South Korea. It costs us a fortune. I had obtained that they pay $ 3 billion [2.6 billion euros], and Biden returned to this. I don't know why. They have become very rich. They took maritime transport, they took our cars. You know, they took us a lot of business, a lot of technology.

You should not feel sorry for these countries. These countries have made a lot of money on our back, a lot. I want to protect this country. I want to make sure it is still a big country in a hundred years. It is a crucial era that we live. We are living a very important time today, Jeffrey. It is one of the most important eras in the history of our country that we live there, right now.